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 Richard Dawkins Ain't That Bad 
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Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:37 am
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Location: Lenexa, Kansas
Post Richard Dawkins Ain't That Bad
As often happens, the truth has become lost in rhetoric. Theistic evolutionists are so busy kowtowing to the religious majority that they have allowed the words of prominent evolutionary biologist and atheist Richard Dawkins to become weapons against them.

It is not Mr. Dawkins’ fault that his thoughtful and outspoken opinions on religion have made the job of teaching quality science here in Kansas tougher. The fault lies squarely on the shoulders of those who work to undermine our science education standards.

Very briefly, I will take up two comments made by Richard Dawkins that are so often cited here in this forum as to make it seem they are the only things he ever said. One is intellectually fulfilled atheism and the other is religious indoctrination as child abuse. Admittedly, I have never read the documents these comments appear in so I am going to give my take on them rather than try to explain what Mr. Dawkins meant by them.

The first is the fact that evolutionary explanations make atheism intellectually fulfilling. This comment is often cited to argue that evolution leads to atheism. This is the rhetoric wherein the truth is lost. In my opinion, this comment simply states an historical fact. Theists always had an intellectual knock-out punch when it came to explaining the existence and complexity of life. That is, until evolutionary theory came about, allowing atheists to counter with a defensive jab.

In a world full of suffering, atheists were unconvinced with the argument that God sabotaged his perfect creation by allowing a snake to deceive the first woman. It was comforting to atheists, before evolutionary thought, to know that theistic dogma was so full of holes; but, intellectually, a miracle to fill the mystery was the only game in town when it came to the origins of life and humanity.

The second comment oft cited is that religious indoctrination of children amounts to child abuse. Again the rhetoric has trounced the truth, and we let it happen with our rush to condemn atheists.

Last week on “Science Friday”, Richard Dawkins had the opportunity to make additional comments on this and he spoke of extremist fundamentalist families and the way they indoctrinate their children.

Has anyone seen the documentary “Jesus Camp”? What did you think? I think there is a very blurry line between what is OK and what is not when it comes to how people transfer their culture to their children. I think there is a legitimate moral question here: Is it OK to completely isolate human beings from the world and feed them a steady diet of lies? On the one hand we have parents who teach their children what to believe but who allow them to cohabitate with others of differing opinions and come to their own conclusions. On the other hand we have parents who do what they can to isolate their children. In the far extreme we have people like David Koresh and Warren Jeffs. Is what they do morally allowable? For balance, is the isolation of North Korea by its “Great Leader” OK? Of course the parents in “Jesus camp” may not be crossing that blurry line, but, in my opinion, they are operating within the blur, and I think Mr. Dawkins would say they have indeed crossed the line.

I applaud Richard Dawkins for expressing this view. We may not agree with where he would draw the line, but maybe we should be thinking about these things. Is it morally acceptable to brainwash your children?


Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:45 am
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Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:16 pm
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Post 
Thanks, Bryan, for your thoughtful comments.

1. I think many of us, irrespective of our religious beliefs, have no trouble with Dawkins' "intellectually fulfilled atheist" statement, and many of us have read the full context in which he wrote that. Intellectual fulfillment is somewhat in the eye of the beholder, and many would argue that intellectual fulfillment is only one of the important types of human fulfillment that we seek. There are many theists, scientists and otherwise, who find intellectual and other type of fulfillment in their understanding of nature.

So I take Dawkins' statement as a personal statement about himself - one which resonates with others who believe as he does, but not one that precludes other people drawing different conclusions about the findings of science.

2. On the other hand, I don't know the full story about the "child abuse" quote, but I do believe it is a quite excessive image, for two reasons.

The first is that all parents pass on their worldviews to their children - this is inevitable, and an absolutely essential part of human's dependence on learning and on socialization within a culture.

So the question is not whether parents expose their children to the worldview that they themselves hold, but rather what are the particulars of the that worldview. Dawkins has been criticized, and as far as I can tell justifiably so, for having a simplistic black-and-white view of religion. he seems to associate it with fundamentalist beliefs which are themselves very black-and-white and with a rejection of scientific knowledge. He also appears to look upon all metaphysical belief with disdain. I think his position lacks appreciation for what I think are very defendable aspects of religious and spiritual belief.

I'm looking forward to hearing him talk, and to seeing whether I have misjudged him or not on this aspect of the issue.


Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:08 pm
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Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:11 pm
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Post 
He may not be "that bad", but he sure likes to stir the old pot.

Quote:
Very briefly, I will take up two comments made by Richard Dawkins that are so often cited here in this forum as to make it seem they are the only things he ever said. One is intellectually fulfilled atheism and the other is religious indoctrination as child abuse. Admittedly, I have never read the documents these comments appear in so I am going to give my take on them rather than try to explain what Mr. Dawkins meant by them.


I believe the "intellectually fulfilled atheism" was in his book 'The Blind Watchmaker'. Not sure where the other comment came from though.


Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:33 pm
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Post 
The other comment is a creationist red herring I think.

It was Dennett who wrote, in Darwin's Dangerous Idea, "It is a terrible offense to misinform a child."

I agree, though I don't think it should be a civil offense necessarily. I think it is a moral affront to free and open inquiry to blinker children in order to prepare a mind to accept a certain religious dogma.

He goes on to say (and here I paraphrase) "You should not be surprised that we attempt to undo the damage at our earliest opportunity."

Here, I believe, he is speaking as an educator, saying, in effect, you can't hide them from the world indefinitely, and when they meet a biology professor, or other educator with some inconvenient truths, they will have to suffer more dissonance than necessary, because you had the temerity to lie to them. That's where I think a case can be made for indocrination as a form of emotional abuse.

Of course, there's wiggle-room in the term "to lie." If the parents, themselves, were lied to as a child, and came to believe the untruth as an article of faith, do they have "the right" to pass that untruth along to their own offspring? Should society at large respect that untruth, and the right of its harborers to spread it?


Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:16 pm
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Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:47 pm
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In an interview for Salon, Dawkins explained what he meant further:

Quote:
You've said that raising children in a religious tradition may even be a form of abuse.

What I think may be abuse is labeling children with religious labels like Catholic child and Muslim child. I find it very odd that in our civilization we're quite happy to speak of a Catholic child that is 4 years old or a Muslim of child that is 4, when these children are much too young to know what they think about the cosmos, life and morality. We wouldn't dream of speaking of a Keynesian child or a Marxist child. And yet, for some reason we make a privileged exception of religion. And, by the way, I think it would also be abuse to talk about an atheist child.


http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature ... index.html


KC

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Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:46 am
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Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:23 am
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Location: BC, Canada
Post 
Jack,

Christensen, used to go on and on about the child abuse "quote". I finally shut him up on that topic by posting the entire section from Dennett book. That post is somewhere in the archives of the old forum... maybe you could find it and re-post it?

thanks

[edited} I forgot that it was Dennett not Dawkins. Sorry.


Last edited by Don Munro on Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:22 pm
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Post 
Don, the old forums are at http://www.kcfs.org/cgi-bin//ultimatebb.cgi

The search feature is not perfect, but if you searched on either your name, or something like dawkins child abuse, perhaps you would recognize the thread. That would be useful to find.


Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:55 pm
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Location: Kansas
Post Dawkins: a brilliant pain in the arse
I recently finished reading Dawkins' book, "River Out of Eden" (which is an excellent one). The "child abuse" statement either appeared there or in an NPR interview I heard within the last few weeks (or both). Seems to me it's not just teaching children fundamentalism that he feels is wrong. It's any particular ideology. He thinks children should find out for themselves what they believe.

So what he's talking about could be called "intellectual abuse." Though I don't see how you raise a child without his or her absorbing your own beliefs.


Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:52 am
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Hi everyone,

The link to the whole thread (which was pretty hilarious, by the way) is here:
http://www.kcfs.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001179#000018
I recommend re-reading this whole thread to help understand how these mis-quotes gain traction in the public consciousness.

The often misquoted text from the Dennett book is as follows:

Quote:
I love the King James Version of the Bible. My own spirit recoils from a God Who is He or She in the same way my heart sinks when I see a lion pacing neurotically back and forth in a small zoo cage. I know, I know, the lion is beautiful but dangerous; if you let the lion roam free, it would kill me; safety demands that it be put in a cage. Safety demands that religions be put in cages, too—when absolutely necessary. We just can't have forced female circumcision, and the second-class status of women in Roman Catholicism and Mormonism, to say nothing of their status in Islam. The recent Supreme Court ruling declaring unconstitutional the Florida law prohibiting the sacrificing of animals in the rituals of the Santeria sect (an Afro-Caribbean religion incorporating elements of Yoruba traditions and Roman Catholicism) is a borderline case, at least for many of us. Such rituals are offensive to many, but the protective mantle of religious tradition secures our tolerance. We are wise to respect these traditions. It is, after all, just part of respect for the biosphere.

Save the Baptists! Yes, of course, but not by all means. Not if it means tolerating the deliberate misinforming of children about the natural world. According to a recent poll, 48 percent of the people in the United States today believe that the book of Genesis is literally true. And 70 percent believe that "creation science" should be taught in school alongside evolution. Some recent writers recommend a policy in which parents would be able to "opt out" of materials they didn't want their children taught. Should evolution be taught in the schools? Should arithmetic be taught? Should history? Misinforming a child is a terrible offense.

A faith, like a species, must evolve or go extinct when the environment changes. It is not a gentle process in either case. We see in every Christian subspecies the battle of memes—should women be ordained? should we go back to the Latin liturgy?—and the same can also be observed in the varieties of Judaism and Islam. We must have a similar mixture of respect and self-protective caution about memes. This is already accepted practice, but we tend to avert our attention from its implications. We preach freedom of religion, but only so far. If your religion advocates slavery, or mutilation of women, or infanticide, or puts a price on Salman Rushdie's head because he has insulted it, then your religion has a feature that cannot be respected. It endangers us all.

It is nice to have grizzly bears and wolves living in the wild. They are no longer a menace; we can peacefully coexist, with a little wisdom. The same policy can be discerned in our political tolerance, in religious freedom. You are free to preserve or create any religious creed you wish, so long as it does not become a public menace. We're all on the Earth together, and we have to learn some accommodation. The Hutterite memes are "clever" not to include any memes about the virtue of destroying outsiders. If they did, we would have to combat them. We tolerate the Hutterites because they harm only themselves—though we may well insist that we have the right to impose some further openness on their schooling of their own children. Other religious memes are not so benign. The message is clear: those who will not accommodate, who will not temper, who insist on keeping only the purest and wildest strain of their heritage alive, we will be obliged, reluctantly, to cage or disarm, and we will do our best to disable the memes they fight for. Slavery is beyond the pale. Child abuse is beyond the pale. Discrimination is beyond the pale. The pronouncing of death sentences on those who blaspheme against a religion (complete with bounties or rewards for those who carry them out) is beyond the pale. It is not civilized, and it is owed no more respect in the name of religious freedom than any other incitement to cold-blooded murder.


Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:30 pm
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Post 
This thread is a good example of why this debate seems to gain so little traction.

As the quote above indicates, what is being said is that misinforming a child is a serious offence. This is a non-controversial statement. Any rational person could come up with a long list of things that children have been misinformed about. We have even passed laws to suppress some of the more pernicious lies that make their way into classrooms.

Of course, here is where it gets tricky. We aren’t talking about just any facts – these are facts that impact the validity of certain religious teachings. Specifically, there are religious beliefs for which there is no corroborating scientific evidence. Some examples include:

Zeus is king of the gods.
North America was populated by the lost tribe of Israel.
The earth is 6,000 years old.

Should an advocate for any of these positions be able to insist that criticism of the scientific evidence against a belief be inserted into public school science so that adherents to a particular belief will not be dismayed?

Of course, the debate has now taken a disingenuous turn, where there is a pretense that we are only discussing scientific controversies. This is a transparent fiction, and must be continually exposed as such. You can tell it is a fiction because the people who raise the issues are conservative Christians who believe their interpretation of the Bible trumps scientific evidence. As well, you'll note that their areas of concern exactly overlap those parts of the Genesis creation story that, when read in a selectively literal way, did not occur as claimed. They aren't concerned, for example, about the pros and cons of global warming - they are only interested in Genesis 1.

There may come a time when religious pressure forces science to give into religious censors and fall silent. If this is not to happen, we’ll need better science education, continued political action, and probably a more appealing theology.

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Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:58 pm
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Post Intellectual Child Abuse/Misuse
Did anybody watch Richard dawkins on YouTube? I watched the clip where he walks into the lions den and has it out with none other than Ted Haggard.

I never knew who Ted Haggard was until now. He was featured in the movie "Jesus camp", and I guess he peaches young Earth creationism to his rather sizeable flock. Indeed, he tells Richard Dawkins that he is mistaken in his view that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old because he is accepting, "some of the the views that are accepted in some portions of the scientific community as fact.", and he seems confident that this arguement is going to fly. Indeed, this arguement does work with many people whom, in my view, just don't care about science anymore, but that is a topic for a different thread.

This thread is now about intellectual child abuse, and the term has sprung up again in the Financial Times article posted here at this forum (forgive me I haven't figured out how to set up links here yet). I think raising children on creationist lies about scientific evidence and the scientific community is child abuse.

Now, understandably this is a touchy subject because it brings to mind images of children being taken from their families because they were taught creationism, but I agree with ConnerJ in that this need not be a civil offence, I just think it is morally repugnant and wrong. It is legally acceptable child abuse.

When it comes to Mr. Dawkins views on religion, I agree his are of high contrast but not simply black and white. He does accept some shades of grey, but I don't think he would accept the same shades that theistic evolutionists would accept. And I wouldn't expect him to; he's an athiest not a theistic evolutionist. But, does he think that passing one's worldview onto one's children is wrong? Of course not. This is an unintended strawman arguement (I beleive) that is very easy to slip into. The issue here is to what extreme does it become child abuse?

Brainwashing children is obviously wrong. Hell, brainwashing people in general is wrong, not just children; but children are rather defenseless when it comes to this sort of treatment. Their minds are open and they perhaps do not have the intellectual tools available to adults to protect themselves from it. Especially from their own parents.

Is it morally acceptable for people like Ted Haggard to tell children that the scientific evidence for a young Earth vs an ancient one is simply a matter of accepting some experts opinions over some others? Is it OK for Palestinian parents to teach their children that Jews practice human sacrifice? Is it OK to teach that Catholics are bad people and they are all going to Hell? No, no, no; it's repugnant. And, if it's not child abuse, then it's misuse. And if it's not misuse then its disgusting. And if it's not disgusting then forgive me for taking Mr. Dawkins side on the issue.


Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:07 pm
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Post Dawkins on NPR
If anyone doubts that Dawkins has ever said teaching children religion is "intellectual child abuse," he has, and I heard him say it today on our public radio station. But his point is a little more nuanced than that. He believes that parents shouldn't tell children what they *should* believe, no matter what the belief. He thinks every person should make up his or her own mind.


Mon Oct 16, 2006 6:08 pm
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