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 Not so intelligent design by Creator 
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Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:04 am
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Post Re: Not so intelligent design by Creator
DagnyWener wrote:
The argument from "artistic expression of deity" in the "unintelligent design" proposition begs the question "If this deity has artistic inclinations to put a crab in the anus of another animal to live in" by what mechanism did this deity aquire such artistic expression?


It looks to me like you are trying to say that the source of intelligence that created us has a sense of humor. If true then I'll agree. And for all you know you just destined yourself to be reborn as one of those crabs, then after finding an anus of your own to call "home" you'll know why they think they never had it so good. :D

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The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.
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Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:30 pm
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Post Re: Not so intelligent design by Creator
No, Gary, I am asking exactly what I am asking. I am not looking for "meaning and sense of humor". I am asking by what "mechanism" and not applying any feelings or emotions of the creator/designer.

Appreciate your lightheartedness, it almost gave me crabs.


Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:40 pm
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Post Re: Not so intelligent design by Creator
To Dagny. Two points:

Unintelligent design might be an argument against some versions of intelligent design, but it's not an argument against the larger omnipotent God that ABO believes in. In fact, intelligent design is bad theology because it reduces God to being more of a human-like engineer than the divine being that many Christians believe in. This is one objection Christians such as Keith Miller have with ID from a religious perspective.

Also, of course I understand the infinite regress problem with the existence of God. I was merely arguing that if one believes in an omnipotent God, there is no reason (other than anthropomorphic projection) to believe that he is more likely to be like an engineer than he is to be like an artist. An omnipotent God can be whatever he wants - it's not so much the expression of his omnipotence that can be reasonably questioned as it is his fundamental existence.

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Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:45 pm
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Post Re: Not so intelligent design by Creator
Jack,

All omnipotent god then can be a trickster god who is screwing with all our minds including the Christians. Infinite regress again and again. Playing Pascal's Wager "Better believe in something than in nothing" is all that is left. it is pointless to talk about it. I don't even accept the term atheist/non believer any more, there should be some better label for this rational modus operandi. Not sure if there is one - rationalist, objective realist, naturalist, objectivist (this one has Ayan Rand connection), materialist, freethinker, critical thinker?

As for unintelligent design argument - I have not come across any others besides biologists making comments about how silly, inefficient and unreasonable it is, including Keith Miller, Ken Miller and Francis Collins. Do you know of any? I have not hear of any biologists who'd invoke miracles, I don't think there are any serious ones out there. They'd be laughed out of lab and deservingly so for expressing their mythology.

The closest I've come to it is "theistic evolutionists" but they are primarily theologically inserting "small miracle" of consciousness and soul in an ape like ancestor (American Scientific Affiliation, Biologos, etc).

Let me know who you have in mind. I'd do some research.


Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:01 pm
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Post Re: Not so intelligent design by Creator
Hmmm. I didn't say anything about biologists invoking miracles???

And no, theistic evolutionists are not just about consciousness and soul being put into people.

I'm not arguing for the existence of God. I'm trying to make the point that if you want to be an effective advocate for the non-existence of God, you should, in my opinion, be knowledgeable about what serious believers in God believe, and keep your arguments logical and to the point - being offensive and rude to believers not only gives them an excuse to not pay attention to you but it also reduces the likelihood that an on-the-fence lurker might pay some attention to you.

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Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:11 pm
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Post Re: Not so intelligent design by Creator
Oh, I don't know...I kind of like Dagny just the way he is! :wink:


Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:27 pm
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Post Re: Not so intelligent design by Creator
Jack Krebs wrote:
Hmmm. I didn't say anything about biologists invoking miracles???

And no, theistic evolutionists are not just about consciousness and soul being put into people.

I'm not arguing for the existence of God. I'm trying to make the point that if you want to be an effective advocate for the non-existence of God, you should, in my opinion, be knowledgeable about what serious believers in God believe, and keep your arguments logical and to the point - being offensive and rude to believers not only gives them an excuse to not pay attention to you but it also reduces the likelihood that an on-the-fence lurker might pay some attention to you.



I meant biologists who are Christians invoking miracles by god in their research.

As for theistic evolutionists not just about soul and consciousness "breathed" into humans what are you talking about? I am not sure I understand. At some point theists have to have a "breathing by god/miraculous" event of a thetan/soul transfer - at conception, at 14 weeks or at viability of the fetus. Or they will not be a theist.

I am not after converting people to evolution. I am after them understanding that their beliefs need to be in the realm of Objective Reality, otherwise we have a problem. It's a hobby. I don't take it seriously.

I am not going to lose sleep over my "rude" remarks. I am sure there is not too many Christians who will also lose sleep over it. Life goes on.


Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:31 pm
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Post Re: Not so intelligent design by Creator
If you don't take all this seriously, I won't. But if you did, you might want to learn about theistic evolution as a theological viewpoint.

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Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:43 pm
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Post Re: Not so intelligent design by Creator
DagnyWener

Being the genius you are, how would you have built a human? Maybe you can submit a engineered drawing with the details and reasons why your human designed system would function better.

I understand the anuses is one of your interests. And congatlgulations, you've proven one can live inside of a human body.

This is a good one. Nothing you've said in relation to the Bible has been accurate. So I wouldn't expect the Lord spreading feces on the faces of those who displease him woud be accurate either. Ya wanna just point it out in the book.

By the way genius It's Dead Sea Scrolls not Red Sea Scrolls.


Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:45 pm
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Post Re: Not so intelligent design by Creator
ABO... So I wouldn't expect the Lord spreading feces on the faces of those who displease him woud be accurate either. Ya wanna just point it out in the book.



ABO,

If the LORD makes specific references to spreading human or animal feces on people he doesn't like, what would this mean?

Would it be a moral thing to do today or 2,000+ years ago?

Under which circumstances do you think it would be OK to spread it over people? Can you give me a couple of examples?


Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:15 pm
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Post Re: Not so intelligent design by Creator
DagnyWener wrote:
ABO... So I wouldn't expect the Lord spreading feces on the faces of those who displease him woud be accurate either. Ya wanna just point it out in the book.



ABO,

If the LORD makes specific references to spreading human or animal feces on people he doesn't like, what would this mean?

Would it be a moral thing to do today or 2,000+ years ago?

Under which circumstances do you think it would be OK to spread it over people? Can you give me a couple of examples?


What would it mean? Possibly demonic influence or possession your case.

It appears you have little if any firsthand knowledge of the Bible. And it seems quite evident that all of your opinions
come from atheist and agnostic propaganda mills. But many of your comments and questions are of no value at all, but just pure sadistic.

You say here,"I am not after converting people to evolution.I am after them understanding that their beliefs need to be in the realm of Objective Reality," That's a funny thing to say when your own statements contradict anything which might represent objective reality.


Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:46 pm
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Post Re: Not so intelligent design by Creator
ABO...What would it mean? Possibly demonic influence or possession your case.

My being demonically possessed has nothing to do with the LORD threatening to spread feces over people's faces. He either says it or not, right? Google it.

So, do you think it's moral to spread dung over people's faces? It's either OK or not, ABO Can you give me an example under which it would be OK for you to spread dung over anybody's face?

ABO... But many of your comments and questions are of no value at all, but just pure sadistic.

Not sure what you mean by sadistic? You mean "thoughts" make you cringe that you perceive me to be sadistic and tourterous? This may be so upsetting? Are you going to lose sleep over it? I doubt it. The only way to avoid this "sadism" is for you to stop reading the posts on this forum, I guess.

You'd make for a wonderful neighbor with this attitude. I'd love to be an atheist living next door to you. We'd have fascinating conversations, no doubt.


Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:07 pm
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Post Re: Not so intelligent design by Creator
DagnyWener wrote:
No, Gary, I am asking exactly what I am asking. I am not looking for "meaning and sense of humor". I am asking by what "mechanism" and not applying any feelings or emotions of the creator/designer.

Looking it up in the Theory of Intelligent Design I find that it has the name “reciprocal causation” that comes from Social Learning Theory teachers are into also, because of it being useful for helping to explain how human intelligence works. I use its theoretical framework for situations like here with your anal crabs, where there is already a phrase in use for that concept (but at another intelligence level here human). I don't have to reinvent the wheel for all in biology to make sense, from the perspective of intelligence...

Quote:
At all levels of complexity, living things profoundly change each other in response to each other’s behavior in ways that make it hard to explain the origin of features of one without including features of all living intelligent things around them. As in Social Learning Theory there is a “reciprocal causation” where the person (or living thing), the behavior, and the environment can have an influence on each other. All (not just certain cases) life, its behavior and environment is here a product of reciprocal causation.

--------------------
Social Learning Theory, from notes on Ormond's Human Learning, Ormrod, J.E. (1999). Human learning (3rd ed.). Upper Saddle River, NJ: Prentice-Hall.
http://teachnet.edb.utexas.edu/~Lynda_abbot/Social.html

Here, you should have already known that anyway:

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https://sites.google.com/site/intellige ... Design.doc

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https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid= ... ZmN2NiNTEx

DagnyWener wrote:
Appreciate your lightheartedness, it almost gave me crabs.

You left yourself wide-Open on that one! :lol:

And speaking of crabs, the culture-war has given us golden ones that can crawl into almost anything. Hard to squish too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecuC8Iumd2A

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The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.
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Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:10 pm
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Post Re: Not so intelligent design by Creator
DagnyWener wrote:
ABO... So I wouldn't expect the Lord spreading feces on the faces of those who displease him woud be accurate either. Ya wanna just point it out in the book.



ABO,

If the LORD makes specific references to spreading human or animal feces on people he doesn't like, what would this mean?

Would it be a moral thing to do today or 2,000+ years ago?

Under which circumstances do you think it would be OK to spread it over people? Can you give me a couple of examples?


How are the atheists here, who seem to all be Moral Relativists, in any position to question what was moral 2,000 years ago?

Or even today for that matter?

Prediction...Dagny will pretend that no one has noticed that he is a Moral Relativist trying to make pronouncements on morality; he knows he has taken an Irrational position but has no way around it. :shock:


Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:42 am
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Post Re: Not so intelligent design by Creator
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Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:51 am
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