Is it possible that everything you thought you knew about whale evolution was the result of jumping to conclusions, and is totally wrong?

This topic is now better explained in a way that also led to major challenge for would-be experts in paleontology related things, to stay ahead of the current science curve, themselves. But it's not a think that has to be bad, for anyone, so all can still like it and have fun too even though it's overpowering change that comes from science going a given direction that's out of your control to fully change. Jack and others who like me also just need the facts from experts on this newest controversy over whales and mosasaurs can relax and enjoy the shoreline scenery in the video that goes with the hundreds of pages of earlier three part Theory of Intelligent Design thread review thread, now in that forum’s archives, that the Intelligent Design Lab concept much came from:

http://www.talkrational.org/showthread. ... ost1740870

Gary,

One word - Ignorance. Utter ignorance. Look up some great books on whale evolution on Amazon.

If anything common morphologically between the two classes, it is explained by "convergent" evolution. Cases of convergence are common in animal world and are well documented when different animals occupy the same niche in different/or same locales and eventually evolution drives them into the same direction (e.g. white color of snowy owl, Arctic fox, polar bear, or fur color of flying squirrel, regular squirrel, mice, rats who may differ widely in their geographic distribution but still would have a similar color pattern due to natural selection) or in cases of different continents in let's say placental and marsupial mammals (S/N America & Australia - flying squirrel vs. sugar glider, ant eater vs. banded ant eater, mole vs. marsupial mole)

Cacti and euphorbs also display convergence - rough, tough and leafless with a fat stem for water storage. They also show phylogenetic relationship by DNA testing.

Convergence is an excellent example of common ancestry, spoliation and most importantly, natural selection

Please, experience some Objective Reality by reading this. Ignorance is a great thing to waste. Objective Reality is a great thing to gain.

There are some specific whale only differences in that no other animal share but whales and their land ancestors. It is a fact, indisputable. Their ear structure, their mammalian bone structure vs. reptilitan bone structure, spine movement, atavisms, embryonic development and vestigial organs, as well as DNA and of course dozens and dozens of whale fossils all point to their ancestry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetartiodactyla
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_cetaceans

Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Reptilia
Order: Squamata
Superfamily: †Mosasauroidea
Family: †Mosasauridae

Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Subclass: Eutheria
Order: Cetacea

Gary,

To further rip into your ignorance of the mechanisms of evolution, please, consider convergence of dolphins and Ichthyosaurus on the same body plan. One is a reptile, while the other is a mammal. This are facts of Empirical/Objective Reality. They are hardly going to be negotiable.

Alchemy and chemistry come to mind. So does astrology and astronomy. Homeopathy and medicine too when you say stuff like this.

You fail at E/OR. Utter failure. I am not sure if there is any way you can improve your views of E/OR. Looks like ABO, you are dwelling in subjective reality so deep that it's an abyss.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichthyosaur

Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Reptilia
clade: †Eoichthyosauria
Order: †Ichthyosauria

Kingdom: Animalia
Division: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Cetacea
Family: Delphinidae

Dagny, even with the prodding to get me kicking around your stall, I seriously do not care to argue the issue over where whales came from. My goal is to better explain things, not make matters worse by throwing big-words around like they somehow explain the problem to everyone.

To help explain what I’m looking for I wrote another reply for the Talk Rational thread that’s now 58 long pages of reading to wade through:

http://www.talkrational.org/showthread. ... ost1742746

In this case the ones who will change science are those who upload the required “articulation files” to anywhere on the Internet including Planet Source Code. With proper keywords the search engines will find them.

If you want to be helpful Dagny then find out where academia is at with the articulation file database that I expected would exist by now. Simply drawing the bone pivot points and muscle lines straight from the file might be a big help, and that’s easy. So what you got?

Go West, young man.

Gary......... Simply drawing the bone pivot points and muscle lines straight from the file might be a big help, and that’s easy. So what you got?

Gary,

"Semicircular canals" of the inner ear of whales/dolphins is really all you need to know. Google it.

Also "Indohyus".

And finally "Chevrotain."

It's part of Empirical Reality. Good luck!

Gary,

Check this video of mouse deer swimming and staying underwater for an extended period of time (up to 4 minutes)

http://scienceblogs.com/laelaps/2009/07 ... ouse_d.php

Genetically, hippos appear to be the closest relations to the whales, yet this mousedeer appears to share many morphological features with the early prewhales.

Because these species diverged at least 35 million years ago, their ancestor also likely behaved in the same way, again bolstering the the idea that a deer-like ruminant may have evolved to produce the modern cetacean group of whales and dolphins.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_ne ... 137922.stm

The other thread already argued ear morphology and just about everything else in more detail than I needed. I'm not even arguing that whales evolved from mosasaurs, someone else is. I'm just observing what all find for evidence, where regardless of being relatively conclusive it all together becomes a giant pile of text and graphics to spend a day sorting out in an attempt to conceptualize. End up having to connect words and sketchy pictures to wiki articles, when all that is needed are articulation files and 3D Intelligence Design Lab type environment to swim around inside. Can examine their ear articulation there as well.

Tomorrow I will be sending what I have for an idea to include in the BioSystems Database. I'll add Indohyus and Water Chevrotain and Mouse Deer to the list of articulations that are needed. In this case mosasaurs only exist as fossil skeletons, properly comparing requires whale and deer mouse skeletons that are brought to life the same way, not video of a real one (that's for later just to see how close model is to real thing).