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 More on the Pope and Islam 
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Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:57 am
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Post More on the Pope and Islam
I recently came across this article defending the Pope's recent speech concerning Islam. In it the writer makes some arguments that I find decidedly odd:
Quote:
His lecture in Germany was, first of all, a celebration of human reason - the human capacity to know the truth of things. Our ability to think our way through to convictions we can know are true is the defining characteristic of our humanity and the spark of the divine within us. So reason and faith cannot be in conflict: True faith is reasonable faith, faith that makes sense, faith that can be proposed as reasonable to others.

The pope's second point was that our idea of God has a lot to do with how we think about the world, ourselves and our moral obligations. Christianity, following its Jewish parent, proposes a God of reason, love and compassion - a God who invites us to use our reason in responding to his invitation to faith, a God who calls his people
Israel (in the Hebrew Bible) and the church (in the New Testament) into a true conversation. That idea of God shapes the Jewish and Christian convictions that the world is intelligible and that people of reason and goodwill can build decent societies, based on reasonable standards of behavior.

But there are other ideas of God to offer, and one of them is the idea of God proposed by certain currents of Islamic thought. In this view, God is utterly transcendent, a majestic, unapproachable lawgiver to whom the only appropriate response is the absolute submission of our own minds and wills. Now, to be sure, this idea of God can lead to a profound piety. As a Muslim acquaintance once said to me (speaking of the Catholic belief in the real presence of Christ in the consecrated bread and wine of the Eucharist), "If I really believed that Allah was on that altar, I'd be crawling up the aisle on my hands and knees." It would be a blessing if nominal Christians shared such a powerful belief in the majesty of the divine.

Alas, the pope went on to suggest, the idea of God as pure will can also have bad effects. Taken to extremes, it may suggest that God can command anything. As one scholar of Islam cited by the pope, Roger Arnaldez, has argued - this kind of God could order us to practice idolatry. Or, to come down to contemporary cases, God could command us to do what seems wicked - suicide bombing, for example. That far too many jihadist Muslims around the world - including, one fears, the president of
Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad - believe that the killing of innocents is pleasing to God if it advances Islam's cause and hastens the day of Islam's triumph suggests that
Pope Benedict's theological point is not an abstract one.

The problem is that Judaism and Christianity both have a strong vein of submission to God's will themselves: Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac at God's command, the passage "thy will be done" in the Lord's Prayer, and the Catholic Church's Opus Dei movement are some notable examples of this thread.

And Catholic Christianity is not a religion of individual human faith and reason but of submission to the hierarchical dictates of the Vatican -- a subjegation of which Benedict (in his roles as Theological watchdog and then Pope) is a potent symbol.

Whilst I disagree with the vehemence of Muslim anger against the Pope's speech, I think the speech demonstrated a gross inability to see his own religion through others' eyes (no matter how well-read he might be in non-Catholic Theologies) and to see that it also contains many of the flaws he was so quick to point out in Islam.


Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:58 am
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Post Re: More on the Pope and Islam
Hrafn wrote:
Whilst I disagree with the vehemence of Muslim anger against the Pope's speech, I think the speech demonstrated a gross inability to see his own religion through others' eyes (no matter how well-read he might be in non-Catholic Theologies) and to see that it also contains many of the flaws he was so quick to point out in Islam.


"Muslim anger..." that almost sounds redundant these days.

For such a peaceful religion, they sure can claim a lot of suicide bombers as their own. Say what you want, but the connection is definitely there.

Here's another phrase I don't get: The "War on Terror"...Isn't that a bit like saying the "Terror on Terror"? I dunno...maybe there's nothing else to call it, but it just seems a little strange to me.

And how does the "War on Terror" fit with this finding?

U.S. report says Iraq war has fueled terror threat

With results like this, I'm just glad the government isn't waging a war on poverty or drugs!


Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:57 am
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The logic here seems to be that, "some Muslims have done such and such, therefore all Muslims are about such and such".

No different than saying that " some Christians, atheists, scientists, whoever (like some trolls have alleged) have done such and such therefore all do such and such".

One giant series of non sequiturs, it seems to me.


Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:02 am
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I'm not sure that anyone here is arguing that because some Muslims do bad hings all Muslims are bad. I think the points being made are not that black-and-white.


Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:16 am
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I think it is as false to call Islam a "religion of peace" as it is to call post-Constantinian Christianity a "religion of peace." Both have been demonstrably warrior faiths.

Islam has fueled the Umayyad march through North Africa and Spain (until it was halted by Charles Martel at Tours), the Seljak invasion of Byzantine Asia Minor, and the Ottoman march to the gates of Vienna.

Christianity has fueled crusades against Muslims, Pagans and Heretics, the Hussite Wars, the French Wars of Religion and the Thirty Years War.


Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:42 am
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Etc.

Some Christians have done such and such, therefore all Christians (Christianity) are responsible.

Some whoever have done such and such, therefore whoever are (ALL) responsible.


Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:46 am
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"Some Christians" Chet?

Both the crusades and the Thirty Years War involved a large chunk of Christendom for an extended period. The latter involved most of Western and Central Europe (From Spain to Bohemia to Scandanavia).


Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:18 am
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Chet wrote:
The logic here seems to be that, "some Muslims have done such and such, therefore all Muslims are about such and such".


That may be your logic Chet, but it ain't mine. I never even implied the sort of stretch you're making.

Chet wrote:
No different than saying that " some Christians, atheists, scientists, whoever (like some trolls have alleged) have done such and such therefore all do such and such".


Nope. So why make it? Nobody else is.

At any rate, call me crazy Chet, but it just seems to me the Muslim world is very quick to get pissed off *and* violent about (in my mind) "the small stuff"

Remember the cartoons? Sheesh! What a mess!

Protesters burn consulate over cartoons
Muslim cartoon fury claims lives
Muslim violence spreads

Image

Ultimately, who is responsible for this violence? And what is the common denominator of those responsible?

Here's an interesting search...Do a google search for Muslim Violence

Result: 21.4 million hits

Now do a search for Christian Violence

Result: 36 million hits

Finally, do a search for atheist violence

Result: 2.68 million hits

So...doing some really fancy number-crunching here, it looks like people are talking about sectarian violence (60.1 million hits for Muslim & Christian search terms alone) 22.4 times *more* than they're talking about non-sectarian (such as atheistic) violence.

I think at the very least that's probably because there *is* more sectarian violence than there is non-sectarian violence.


Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:55 am
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Just a little warning here - this topic can easily get volatile. When discussing extremism, it is important to not be extremist.


Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:10 pm
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Jack's right.

So, I'm gonna shift from talking about religion, per se, to "cultures".

One thing I'm sure everyone has noticed is that the *overwhelming* majority of Muslim violence occurs outside of the United States.

This, to me, indicates that the problem isn't so much with the religion itself, but with the dominant culture that religion exists in.

Say what you want, but even with all the problems we have here in the U.S., at least we have a culture where people with differing religious views can co-exist without killing each other.

At least we can agree to disagree, without resorting to violence.

Which is interesting, because on one hand, it seems that importing this little bit of "Americana" into Iraq, for example, would have some positive, long-term benefits.

On the other hand, to establish this "peaceful tomorrow", we have to resort to a violent today.

[thinks for a while]

Then again, maybe I should just stick to sarcasm, movie one-liners, and music?


Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:22 pm
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Those are good points.


Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:24 pm
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rmadison wrote:
This, to me, indicates that the problem isn't so much with the religion itself, but with the dominant culture that religion exists in.


Does it? There has been major recent religiously-motivated violence involving Muslims in the Phillipines, Indonesia, Thailand, India, Iraq, Sudan, Nigeria, Lebanon, and Algeria. What is the common cultural element?

I would also point out that Islam hass a sufficiently pervasive influence on its followers' lives that it can itself be considered a major cultural influence.


Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:46 pm
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Hrafn wrote:
rmadison wrote:
This, to me, indicates that the problem isn't so much with the religion itself, but with the dominant culture that religion exists in.


Does it? There has been major recent religiously-motivated violence involving Muslims in the Phillipines, Indonesia, Thailand, India, Iraq, Sudan, Nigeria, Lebanon, and Algeria. What is the common cultural element?


Don't know.

*Not* the United States? [shrugs] I honestly don't know. I just know that we don't have the sorts of problems *here* in the U.S. that seem to cause so many problems in so many other parts of the world.

Don't answer this if you have to go googling up the info, but I wonder how many of those other countries have separation of church & state built into their system of governments?

Hrafn wrote:
I would also point out that Islam hass a sufficiently pervasive influence on its followers' lives that it can itself be considered a major cultural influence.


Oh, without question. They certainly influence each other, so in that sense I think you're right. There wouldn't be any way to isolate one without considering the other.

But then come back to the U.S., and look around for Muslims rioting, or acting violently towards others. You just don't see it.

I don't know what all the factors are, but the results show that we're doing *something* right over here.


Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:53 pm
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rmadison wrote:
*Not* the United States? [shrugs] I honestly don't know. I just know that we don't have the sorts of problems *here* in the U.S. that seem to cause so many problems in so many other parts of the world.


Probably because the US is neither majority Muslim (Indonesia, Iraq, Sudan, Lebanon, Algeria), nor has a large area that is majority Muslim (Southern Phillipines, Southern Thailand, Kashmir, Northern Nigeria). Thus nowhere in the US is Islam a pervasive influence.


Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:08 pm
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Hrafn wrote:
rmadison wrote:
*Not* the United States? [shrugs] I honestly don't know. I just know that we don't have the sorts of problems *here* in the U.S. that seem to cause so many problems in so many other parts of the world.


Probably because the US is neither majority Muslim (Indonesia, Iraq, Sudan, Lebanon, Algeria), nor has a large area that is majority Muslim (Southern Phillipines, Southern Thailand, Kashmir, Northern Nigeria). Thus nowhere in the US is Islam a pervasive influence.


True. That must be considered a highly relevant factor.

Damn...that's kinda scary. Is Muslim violence the norm in *every* culture where it is the dominant religion?

There's just no way the connection could be that simple. I just can't believe it's a one-to-one, "Muslim dominant = Violent" thing going on. If it is...that's...scary.


Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:13 pm
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