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 The state of free speech in France... 
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Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:19 am
Posts: 877
Post The state of free speech in France...
Quote:
French Lower House Adopts Armenia `Genocide' Law (Update5)

By Francois de Beaupuy and Mark Bentley

Oct. 12 (Bloomberg) -- France's lower house of Parliament defied pleas by Turkish officials and adopted a law punishing anyone denying that the killing of Armenians by Ottoman Turks in 1915 amounted to genocide.

Lawmakers of the National Assembly in Paris today voted 106- 19 in favor of the bill, which sets out fines of up to 45,000 euros ($56,460) and a year in prison for denying the events were genocide. French senators from the upper house will now examine the proposed legislation at a date yet to be specified.

The European Commission criticized the vote for hindering ``reconciliation'' over the killings, further straining the European Union's membership talks with Turkey. The Turkish Foreign Ministry said the vote ``dealt a heavy blow'' to bilateral relations with France.

``Turkey has no lesson to teach us on the repression of opinions,'' Patrick Devedjian, a French lawmaker of the governing UMP party of Armenian descent, said in the National Assembly today, in a reference to a Turkish law used to prosecute writers who challenge Turkey's denial of the genocide. ``The Turkish government is very hypocritical.''

Nobel Prize
Turkish novelist Orhan Pamuk, who was prosecuted by Turkey's courts last year after he said Turks had persecuted Armenians, was today awarded the 2006 Nobel prize in literature. Pamuk is one of about 80 writers and intellectuals tried by the nation's courts over the past year for ``insulting Turkishness.'' An Istanbul-based court threw out the case against Pamuk in January.

The European Union says Turkey's refusal to acknowledge that 1.5 million Armenians were massacred during World War I clouds the nation's bid for membership. Accession talks began a year ago. Turkey denies Armenian allegations of genocide, saying tens of thousands of ethnic Turks and Armenians were killed after Armenian groups sided with Russia in the war.

``Should this law indeed enter into force, it would prohibit the debate and the dialogue which is necessary for reconciliation on this issue,'' European Commission enlargement spokeswoman Krisztina Nagy told a Brussels press conference today.

Turkey may bar French companies from bidding for state-owned assets, including nuclear power stations, if the bill becomes law, according to a report Oct. 7 in Turkey's Hurriyet newspaper that cited Turkish Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul. Hurriyet today carried a headline ``Liberte, Egalite, Stupidite,'' to describe the French Parliament's move.

Turkey `Loses Nothing'
``If this draft law is approved, Turkey will lose nothing, but France will first of all lose Turkey,'' Gul said in televised comments late yesterday.

``Relations between Turkey and France, which have been based on a long history and carefully developed through the centuries, have been dealt a heavy blow as a result of the irresponsible behavior of a group of French politicians who are incapable of comprehending the results of their policies,'' the Turkish foreign ministry said in an emailed statement today.

Zafer Caglayan, who heads the Ankara Chamber of Industry, planned to tell reporters during a visit to Paris today that the genocide never happened in the event lawmakers passed the draft bill, Turkish newspaper Vatan said.

Supporters of Galatasaray, an Istanbul-based soccer club, will protest the law with banners at a Champions League match in Bordeaux, France on Nov. 22, Vatan said today.

`Falling Victim'
In his comments late yesterday, Gul said he hoped that France wouldn't ``fall victim to minor domestic political tools.''

``France will become a country that throws people in jail for expressing their thoughts, for expressing their opinions and for defending historical documents,'' he said.

France enacted a law in 2001 that classifies the Armenia killings as genocide. The legislation as proposed would make it a crime to deny that genocide, much as denial of the Holocaust is outlawed.

The proposed bill was introduced by the opposition Socialist Party. The French government itself opposes the bill, though the majority UMP party decided to let its lawmakers make their own decision in a free vote.

``Today, in France, a land of exile for our parents, Armenians continue to be persecuted by a state which not only doesn't recognize the Armenian genocide, but also organizes the negation of this genocide,'' the UMP's Devedjian told lawmakers today.

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Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:21 pm
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Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:19 am
Posts: 877
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(This seemed to be a more appropriate thread to discuss the "misinforming a child is abuse" topic.)

Bryan wrote:
Brainwashing children is obviously wrong. Hell, brainwashing people in general is wrong, not just children; but children are rather defenseless when it comes to this sort of treatment. Their minds are open and they perhaps do not have the intellectual tools available to adults to protect themselves from it. Especially from their own parents.


I remember watching a special on 20/20 a while back about thirteen-year-old twins Lamb and Lynx Gaede.

Image

Cute girls huh?

Quote:
Young Singers Spread Racist Hate
Duo Considered the Olsen Twins of the White Nationalist Movement

They may remind you of another famous pair of singers, the Olsen Twins, and the girls say they like that. But unlike the Olsens, who built a media empire on their fun-loving, squeaky-clean image, Lamb and Lynx are cultivating a much darker personna. They are white nationalists and use their talents to preach a message of hate.

Known as "Prussian Blue" — a nod to their German heritage and bright blue eyes — the girls from Bakersfield, Calif., have been performing songs about white nationalism before all-white crowds since they were nine.

"We're proud of being white, we want to keep being white," said Lynx. "We want our people to stay white … we don't want to just be, you know, a big muddle. We just want to preserve our race."

Lynx and Lamb have been nurtured on racist beliefs since birth by their mother April. "They need to have the background to understand why certain things are happening," said April, a stay-at-home mom who no longer lives with the twins' father. "I'm going to give them, give them my opinion just like any, any parent would."

April home-schools the girls, teaching them her own unique perspective on everything from current to historical events. In addition, April's father surrounds the family with symbols of his beliefs — specifically the Nazi swastika. It appears on his belt buckle, on the side of his pick-up truck and he's even registered it as his cattle brand with the Bureau of Livestock Identification.

"Because it's provocative," explains April of the cattle brand, "to him he thinks it's important as a symbol of freedom of speech that he can use it as his cattle brand."

Teaching Hate
Songs like "Sacrifice" — a tribute to Nazi Rudolf Hess, Hitler's deputy Fuhrer — clearly show the effect of the girls' upbringing. The lyrics praise Hess as a "man of peace who wouldn't give up."

"It really breaks my heart to see those two girls spewing out that kind of garbage," said Ted Shaw, civil rights advocate and president of the NAACP's Legal Defense Fund — though Shaw points out that the girls aren't espousing their own opinions but ones they're being taught.


Here's those "Sacrifice" lyrics, if you're interested:

Quote:
He fought so strong for our race. We're finally back in our place. It took his life, my dear son, and now it's over the war is won. Our Race was saved because the lives that were sacrificed: those men that died...

Sacrifice , they gave their lives. All those men who have died. Sacrifice, they gave their lives, all those men who have died.

Warrior poet, I sing his songs. Ian Stuart, with his voice so strong. Remember his words, as we sing along.

Rudolph Hess, a man of Peace. He wouldn't give up he wouldn't cease,he gave his loyalty to our Cause. Remember him and give a pause.

Robert Matthews he knew the Truth. He knew what he had to do. He set an example with Courage so bold. We'll never let that fire grow cold.

Dr Pierce, a man so wise, helped so many of us open our eyes, see the future for what it could be: a future for our Race’s eternity.


Anyway...if it really *is* abuse to misinform a child, or to teach them to hate, then it seems April (the twins mother) should probably be thrown in jail.

Except for the fact that the girls are happy, healthy, talented, and making $$$

This discussion is precisely why I posted this bit about France in the first place. If we're going to have a free society, and free speech, then it seems to me that we're just going to have to live with the fact that some people are going to teach their kids values that *we* don't like.

And I think that's their (those other parents) right. No, it's not fair to the kids, but none of us is born into fairness. Some get good parents, some don't. Some have good health, some don't. I just don't see how we can legislate "fairness" when it comes to parents passing on their values to their own kids.

Unless...unless it becomes so clear that something (oh, I dunno...like genocide, or evolution) is so obviously a fact that it'd be insane to deny it...does that change things?

Should it be against the law to deny the Armenian genocide? Or the Holocaust?

Should it be against the law to teach children racial intolerance?

Should it be against the law to teach that common descent isn't a fact?

...

I think each of those things are repugnant things to do...I sure as hell wouldn't do them with *my* kid, but at the same time...I don't feel that it's my place to tell you that you can't do it with your kid.

(But if you *are* going to teach your kids that the Holocaust never happened, I'd like to make sure that our kids never...ever...play together.)

Anyway, what does it mean to have "free speech" if only certain types of speech are free? And then what becomes the arbitror of truth? Is it "science"?

Thank God ~ and this is coming from an atheist! ~ that a certain poster is no longer here to derail this conversation!

_________________
You can believe anything you want, but you don’t get to pick the facts.

madison_robert@hotmail.com


Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:43 pm
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Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:10 pm
Posts: 146
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Quote:
But if you *are* going to teach your kids that the Holocaust never happened, I'd like to make sure that our kids never...ever...play together.

But that's just it. Every child will grow up to be a member of society. I don't care as much who my son plays with now, as who he has to share the streets with later.

People will say, "you have no right to tell me how to raise my child." But the state clearly does have rights in this arena. Physical and emotional abuse are illegal. Abandonment is illegal. Truancy is illegal, within strictures for home-schooling. Certainly, the state has an interest in protecing its innocent and helpless citizens. But it seems to me it also has a legitimate interest in the future of its citizenry.


Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:09 pm
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Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:38 pm
Posts: 751
Location: Kansas
Post Intellectual abuse
Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, the law doesn't prohibit "intellectual abuse." Who would decide what that is? Teaching your kids racial hatred? Raising your kids as Christian Scientists? Atheists? Southern Baptists?


Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:43 pm
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