Bishop Spong on the Three Bggest Misconceptions in the Bible
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Jack Krebs
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:16 pm Posts: 1547
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 Bishop Spong on the Three Bggest Misconceptions in the Bible
Enough of this silly probability stuff - lets get back to serious arguments!  This is interesting. Quote: My Take: The 3 biggest biblical misconceptions
Editor’s note: John Shelby Spong, a former Episcopal bishop of Newark, New Jersey, is author of "Re-Claiming the Bible for a Non-Religious World."
By John Shelby Spong, Special to CNN
The Bible is both a reservoir of spiritual insight and a cultural icon to which lip service is still paid in the Western world. Yet when the Bible is talked about in public by both believers and critics, it becomes clear that misconceptions abound.
To me, three misconceptions stand out and serve to make the Bible hard to comprehend.
First, people assume the Bible accurately reflects history. That is absolutely not so, and every biblical scholar recognizes it.
The facts are that Abraham, the biblically acknowledged founding father of the Jewish people, whose story forms the earliest content of the Bible, died about 900 years before the first story of Abraham was written in the Old Testament.
Actually, that's not in the Bible
Can a defining tribal narrative that is passed on orally for 45 generations ever be regarded as history, at least as history is understood today?
Moses, the religious genius who put his stamp on the religion of the Old Testament more powerfully than any other figure, died about 300 years before the first story of Moses entered the written form we call Holy Scripture.
This means that everything we know about Moses in the Bible had to have passed orally through about 15 generations before achieving written form. Do stories of heroic figures not grow, experience magnifying tendencies and become surrounded by interpretive mythology as the years roll by?
Jesus of Nazareth, according to our best research, lived between the years 4 B.C. and A.D. 30. Yet all of the gospels were written between the years 70 to 100 A.D., or 40 to 70 years after his crucifixion, and they were written in Greek, a language that neither Jesus nor any of his disciples spoke or were able to write.
Are the gospels then capable of being effective guides to history? If we line up the gospels in the time sequence in which they were written - that is, with Mark first, followed by Matthew, then by Luke and ending with John - we can see exactly how the story expanded between the years 70 and 100.
For example, miracles do not get attached to the memory of Jesus story until the eighth decade. The miraculous birth of Jesus is a ninth-decade addition; the story of Jesus ascending into heaven is a 10th-decade narrative.
In the first gospel, Mark, the risen Christ appears physically to no one, but by the time we come to the last gospel, John, Thomas is invited to feel the nail prints in Christ’s hands and feet and the spear wound in his side.
Perhaps the most telling witness against the claim of accurate history for the Bible comes when we read the earliest narrative of the crucifixion found in Mark’s gospel and discover that it is not based on eyewitness testimony at all.
Instead, it’s an interpretive account designed to conform the story of Jesus’ death to the messianic yearnings of the Hebrew Scriptures, including Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53.
The Bible interprets life from its particular perspective; it does not record in a factual way the human journey through history.
The second major misconception comes from the distorting claim that the Bible is in any literal sense “the word of God.” Only someone who has never read the Bible could make such a claim. The Bible portrays God as hating the Egyptians, stopping the sun in the sky to allow more daylight to enable Joshua to kill more Amorites and ordering King Saul to commit genocide against the Amalekites.
Can these acts of immorality ever be called “the word of God”? The book of Psalms promises happiness to the defeated and exiled Jews only when they can dash the heads of Babylonian children against the rocks! Is this “the word of God? What kind of God would that be?
The Bible, when read literally, calls for the execution of children who are willfully disobedient to their parents, for those who worship false gods, for those who commit adultery, for homosexual persons and for any man who has sex with his mother-in-law, just to name a few.
The Bible exhorts slaves to be obedient to their masters and wives to be obedient to their husbands. Over the centuries, texts like these, taken from the Bible and interpreted literally, have been used as powerful and evil weapons to support killing prejudices and to justify the cruelest kind of inhumanity.
The third major misconception is that biblical truth is somehow static and thus unchanging. Instead, the Bible presents us with an evolutionary story, and in those evolving patterns, the permanent value of the Bible is ultimately revealed.
It was a long road for human beings and human values to travel between the tribal deity found in the book of Exodus, who orders the death of the firstborn male in every Egyptian household on the night of the Passover, until we reach an understanding of God who commands us to love our enemies.
The transition moments on this journey can be studied easily. It was the prophet named Hosea, writing in the eighth century B.C., who changed God’s name to love. It was the prophet named Amos who changed God’s name to justice. It was the prophet we call Jonah who taught us that the love of God is not bounded by the limits of our own ability to love.
It was the prophet Micah who understood that beautiful religious rituals and even lavish sacrifices were not the things that worship requires, but rather “to do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with your God.” It was the prophet we call Malachi, writing in the fifth century B.C., who finally saw God as a universal experience, transcending all national and tribal boundaries.
One has only to look at Christian history to see why these misconceptions are dangerous. They have fed religious persecution and religious wars. They have fueled racism, anti-female biases, anti-Semitism and homophobia.They have fought against science and the explosion of knowledge.
The ultimate meaning of the Bible escapes human limits and calls us to a recognition that every life is holy, every life is loved, and every life is called to be all that that life is capable of being. The Bible is, thus, not about religion at all but about becoming deeply and fully human. It issues the invitation to live fully, to love wastefully and to have the courage to be our most complete selves.
That is why I treasure this book and why I struggle to reclaim its essential message for our increasingly non-religious world.
The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of John Shelby Spong. http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/12/2 ... =obnetwork
_________________ "I would rather live with uncertainty than believe things that are not true." (paraphrased from Feynman)
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| Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:41 pm |
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ABO
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:30 pm Posts: 1568 Location: Sebring, Florida
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 Re: Bishop Spong on the Three Bggest Misconceptions in the B
The big misconception is that this nut might be a Christian. Funny you would choose the comments of someone so far off track. And of course he is listed as a signer on the 'Clergy Letter'. Can you verify any of his claims and do they matter? "His position is more than just challenging the Scripture, it is anti-biblical and antichrist. " http://www.letusreason.org/poptea3.htmThis guy is borderline satanic. You can't tell the difference? Jack, you've struck out on this one.
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| Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:38 pm |
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Jack Krebs
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:16 pm Posts: 1547
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 Re: Bishop Spong on the Three Bggest Misconceptions in the B
I thought you might feel that way. However, many people consider his position a reasonable one, and yours not so much.
As for his claims, I thought his discussion about how many of the Bible stories were handed down orally for many generations before they were written was pretty interesting, and probably verifiable as to the approximate dates.
_________________ "I would rather live with uncertainty than believe things that are not true." (paraphrased from Feynman)
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| Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:49 pm |
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ABO
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:30 pm Posts: 1568 Location: Sebring, Florida
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 Re: Bishop Spong on the Three Bggest Misconceptions in the B
I'm sure there are lots of people who agree with him. But he doesn't agree with Biblical scripture according to himself. His rhetoric is more in line with the New Age Movement whereby you are a god and so are trees and bunnies. It is no doubt a religious system influenced by Eastern mysticism.
It makes no scene that he is or would care to be Christian. Spong pretty much says Jesus is a lier. I would think that anyone who has such a stance and claims to follow Jesus is a dangerously confused individual.
As for my position, is if you are considering Spong as a creditable source of information about the Bible it is very very unwise.
Many of the bible stories were passed down such as Passover. The Passover Seder was used to remember what took place in Egypt and the Exodus. Moses is considered the author of the first five books and there is conformation of his authorship throughout the book.
Anything spoken by Spong and his motives in reference to the Bible should be questioned.
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| Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:42 pm |
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Oh Henry
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:55 am Posts: 438 Location: Washington, DC
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 Re: Bishop Spong on the Three Bggest Misconceptions in the B
Jack Krebs wrote: As for his claims, I thought his discussion about how many of the Bible stories were handed down orally for many generations before they were written was pretty interesting, and probably verifiable as to the approximate dates. According to wiki: "Modern biblical scholars have concluded that the written books were a product of the Babylonian exilic period ( c.600 BCE) and that it was completed by the Persian period ( c.400 BCE).[4]" 4. page 1, Blenkinsopp, Joseph (1992). The Pentateuch: An introduction to the first five books of the Bible. Anchor Bible Reference Library. New York: Doubleday. ISBN 038541207X. "Rabbinical Judaism calculated a lifespan of Moses corresponding to 1391–1271 BCE;[6] Christian tradition has tended to assume an earlier date.[7]" 6. Seder Olam Rabbah 7. Jerome's Chronicon (4th century) gives 1592 for the birth of Moses, the 17th-century Ussher chronology calculates 1619 BC (Annals of the World, 1658) "The standard Masoretic text of the Hebrew Bible places Abraham's birth 1,948 years after the Creation, or 1948 AM (Anno Mundi, "Year of the World"). The two other major textual traditions have different dates, the translated Greek Septuagint putting it at 3312 AM and the Samaritan version of the Torah at 2247 AM. All three agree that he died at the age of 175.[16] There have been over two hundred attempts to match the biblical chronology to dates in history, two of the more influential being the traditional Jewish dates ( Abraham lived 1812 BCE to 1637 BCE), and those of the 17th century Archbishop James Ussher (1976 BCE to 1801 BCE); but the most that can be said with some degree of certainty is that the standard Hebrew text of Genesis places Abraham in the earlier part of the second millennium BCE.[17]" 16. "G.F. Hasel, "Chronogenealogies in the Biblical History of Beginnings"". Grisda.org. Retrieved 2010-03-02. 17. ""Biblical Chronology", Catholic Encyclopedia (1913)". Newadvent.org. 1908-11-01. Retrieved 2010-03-02. ABO wrote: Many of the bible stories were passed down such as Passover. The Passover Seder was used to remember what took place in Egypt and the Exodus. Moses is considered the author of the first five books and there is conformation of his authorship throughout the book. Given the large gap between Moses and the written Torah, its likely that what is chronicled about Moses in the Torah is what the cult of Moses wanted his legacy to be known for, whether it actually happened or not. Same could be said about Jesus, who was likely just another 1st century doomsday preacher in the vein of John the Baptist, but whose story was re-invented by Paul or other interested parties to give him authority.
_________________ "Your comments here aren't based on anything other than secular reasoning and they have no merit at all." ~ ABO
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| Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:22 pm |
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ABO
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:30 pm Posts: 1568 Location: Sebring, Florida
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 Re: Bishop Spong on the Three Bggest Misconceptions in the B
Oh Henry The content of the torah is attributed to Moses. there is commentary at the end of Deuteronomy. Chapter 34:5 So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, Obviously he didn't write that. Throughout the bible Moses is recognized as the person who produced the first five books. Moses : The Author of the Torah http://www.layevangelism.com/advtxbk/se ... ec10-8.htm Quote: Given the large gap between Moses and the written Torah, its likely that what is chronicled about Moses in the Torah is what the cult of Moses wanted his legacy to be known for, whether it actually happened or not. Same could be said about Jesus, who was likely just another 1st century doomsday preacher in the vein of John the Baptist, but whose story was re-invented by Paul or other interested parties to give him authority. Spoken like a true humanist. Your comments here aren't based on anything other than secular reasoning and they have no merit at all.
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| Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:05 pm |
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Jack Krebs
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:16 pm Posts: 1547
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 Re: Bishop Spong on the Three Bggest Misconceptions in the B
Actually they are very reasonable comments. There is considerable research on the process by which oral traditions (and later, written one) develop and embellish stories to enhance the positions of those doing the embellishing. And its perfectly reasonable for people who don't believe that the Bible is the errant Word of God to analyze the Bible just as the would, and have, any other similar work that is part of a cultural tradition.
_________________ "I would rather live with uncertainty than believe things that are not true." (paraphrased from Feynman)
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| Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:13 pm |
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ABO
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:30 pm Posts: 1568 Location: Sebring, Florida
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 Re: Bishop Spong on the Three Bggest Misconceptions in the B
Such 'reasonable comments' might fit many scenarios, but in this case I don't think so.
If Jesus was just a 1st century doomsday preacher he would have fallen by the wayside long ago.
The content in scripture is historically accurate.
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| Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:40 am |
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Oh Henry
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:55 am Posts: 438 Location: Washington, DC
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 Re: Bishop Spong on the Three Bggest Misconceptions in the B
ABO wrote: Spoken like a true humanist. Your comments here aren't based on anything other than secular reasoning and they have no merit at all. This is the funniest thing I've read in a while. ABO wrote: Spoken like a true humanist. Uh... thank you? ABO wrote: Your comments here aren't based on anything other than secular reasoning Thank you, again. ABO wrote: and they have no merit at all. Reasoned comments that have no sectarian bias have no merit? ABO really does live on a different planet.
_________________ "Your comments here aren't based on anything other than secular reasoning and they have no merit at all." ~ ABO
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| Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:29 am |
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Oh Henry
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:55 am Posts: 438 Location: Washington, DC
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 Re: Bishop Spong on the Three Bggest Misconceptions in the B
ABO wrote: If Jesus was just a 1st century doomsday preacher he would have fallen by the wayside long ago. Except if his followers, and later Paul, and then the early Church, wanted to legitimize Jesus (and themselves) in the eyes of the people, by reinventing him as fulfilling prophecy and performing miracles. These were the people writing the Gospels and then editing/compiling the Canon... they could write them anyway they wanted. The Church perfected this art of self-legitimization and it continues via the ever-expanding cult of Saints to this very day with the beatification of Pope John Paul II. ABO wrote: The content in scripture is historically accurate. Says you? 
_________________ "Your comments here aren't based on anything other than secular reasoning and they have no merit at all." ~ ABO
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| Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:46 am |
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Jack Krebs
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:16 pm Posts: 1547
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 Re: Bishop Spong on the Three Bggest Misconceptions in the B
ABO writes, "If Jesus was just a 1st century doomsday preacher he would have fallen by the wayside long ago. "
Same could be said of Mohammed or Buddha. It is very common for people and events to reach mythological status because succeeding cultures use (and embellish) the stories in order solidify certain values and the segment of society who hold those values.
_________________ "I would rather live with uncertainty than believe things that are not true." (paraphrased from Feynman)
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| Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:49 pm |
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ABO
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:30 pm Posts: 1568 Location: Sebring, Florida
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 Re: Bishop Spong on the Three Bggest Misconceptions in the B
Oh Henry I'm not to much into Catholicism. A lot of religious hoodoo voodoo. But the 112th Pope prophecy is interesting. The events predicted might coincide with future events. We'll see. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V4ieFfI0Ww No, it's not just me who can't find anything historically inaccurate in the book, there are millions. With your vast knowledge of biblical errors could you point out a few?
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| Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:35 pm |
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Jack Krebs
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:16 pm Posts: 1547
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 Re: Bishop Spong on the Three Bggest Misconceptions in the B
ABO writes, "I'm not to much into Catholicism. A lot of religious hoodoo voodoo." That shatters the irony meter, I'm afraid - Catholicism is "a lot of religious hoodoo voodoo" and ABO's brand of Biblical inerrantism isn't! 
_________________ "I would rather live with uncertainty than believe things that are not true." (paraphrased from Feynman)
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| Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:09 pm |
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ABO
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:30 pm Posts: 1568 Location: Sebring, Florida
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 Re: Bishop Spong on the Three Bggest Misconceptions in the B
Jack Krebs wrote: ABO writes, "I'm not to much into Catholicism. A lot of religious hoodoo voodoo." That shatters the irony meter, I'm afraid - Catholicism is "a lot of religious hoodoo voodoo" and ABO's brand of Biblical inerrantism isn't!  No it's not. Just a few things. I don't find reference in the Bible where one such as the Pope should exist in New Testament times. We have direct contact with Christ through the Holy Spirit we don't need some one to stand in his shoes. Nor can I find anything which might change ones position beyond the grave by a living human, such praying some one out of purgatory. Neither does the New Testament suggest that Mary should pray for us or we should pray to her. I don't find any of these things in the Book, Do you?
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| Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:48 pm |
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Norm Smith
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:02 pm Posts: 178 Location: Lincoln NE
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 Re: Bishop Spong on the Three Bggest Misconceptions in the B
ABO writes Quote: No, it's not just me who can't find anything historically inaccurate in the book, there are millions. With your vast knowledge of biblical errors could you point out a few?
Several years ago, I made up the following list of Biblical contradictions for an Honors seminar class I was teaching at the time. They came from a book called "Creationism: the Bible Says No", by Eric J. Hildeman (2004), and are a sample of the many mathematical impossibilities and logical contradictions that appear in the Bible. Regardless of what messages they are inferred to convey, literal and inerrant truth is not one of them. If anyone is curious to check them out, try using http://www.biblegateway.com/ for convenience. You may want to skip the first one---- enough already has been written about the two accounts of origins in Genesis 1,2. Biblical Contradictions 1. Genesis accounts of origins: Genesis 1:1-2:3 vs Genesis 2:4-2:9 2. Aramean charioteers slain by King David: 2 Samuel 10:18 vs 1 Chronicles 19:18 3. How large was King David’s army? 2 Samuel 24:9 vs 1 Chronicles 21:5 4. OK Araunah, how much does the threshing floor really cost? 1 Chronicles 21:25 vs 2 Samuel 24:24 5. How many supervisors were in Solomon’s temple project? 1 Kings 5:15-16 vs 2 Chronicles 2:2 6. Terah and his son Abraham--- how old were they? (a little sleuthing project….) Genesis 11:26; Genesis 11:32; Genesis 12:4; Acts 7:4 7. King Asa vs King Baasha, or Baasha’s ghost? 2 Chronicles 16:1; 1 Kings 16:6-8 8. Insect evolution, or couldn’t they count back then? Leviticus 11:20-23 9. So what actually happened to the traitorous Judas and his blood money? Matthew 27:5 vs Acts 1:18 10. The Gerasene demoniac(s?) Mark 5:1-2; Luke 8:26-27; Matthew 8:28 11. Names of the 12 Apostles? Matthew 10:2-4 vs Luke 6:16 12. The death of Jesus Luke 23:44-47; Matthew 27:45-54; Mark 15:33-39; John 19:28-34 13. At Jesus’ tomb: angel(s) and other visitor(s) John 20:11-12; Matthew 28:2; Mark 16:5; Luke 24:3-4 14. Who is Saul (Paul) trying to escape from? Acts 9:22-25 vs 2 Corinthians 11:32-33 15. How much was Solomon paid? 1 Kings 9:26-28 vs 2 Chronicles 8:17-18 16. But Jesus, you told us not to say that. Matthew 5:22 vs Matthew 23:17
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| Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:39 pm |
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