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 Jacob's Trouble approaching 
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Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:55 am
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Location: Washington, DC
Post Re: Jacob's Trouble approaching
Norm Smith wrote:
ABO says that “Biblical statements are true or false”. If he actually believe the “…or false” part, he has given no hint of this before.
Oh, he doesn't. In fact its worse than that...
ABO wrote:
Every Bible prediction must be dead on the money or there is no credibility at all. Every event in history, every geological location, ever prediction must be correct.
So, not only are there no false parts, there can't be any false parts because, for some stupid reason, if you throw out the dirty bathwater you must throw out the baby. Explains why ABO is continually bathing in dirty water, I guess.

ABO wrote:
Harry Gregory wrote:
Jack & I accept the scientific evidence of evolution and you don't. How is it that your position is more correct?
Good question,

All of sciences statements are tentative.
Biblical statements are true or false. Big difference.

Biblical inerrancy is just an obsession with certainty.

Science and science-minded people are okay with saying, "I don't know." Science and science-minded people are okay with changing our minds when a better explanation comes along. Uncertainty is an opportunity to ask more questions. Uncertainty is the foundation of the beautiful and complex mystery of the Universe. This frustrates the hell out of religious fundamentalists. In fact, ABO and MikeH have frequently (and comically) used the provisional nature of science and the inherent lack of certainty as ammunition against science. They see the great strength of science as its downfall.

Why?

The Psychology of Apologetics: Biblical Inerrancy
http://de-conversion.com/2008/11/09/the-psychology-of-apologetics-biblical-inerrancy/
Quote:
But what is the appeal of this idea [of Biblical inerrancy], and why is it so difficult for many of us to give up? I suggest that Biblical inerrancy is so appealing because it meets a desperate psychological need, for believers. It provides a sure ground for certainty.

Certainty is a defining need of the fundamentalist mindset. Fundamentalists are overwhelmed at the prospect of not being sure, or at least not being sure about the things that matter – one’s role and purpose in life, the basis for ethical behavior, what happens after death, how to make good decisions for your life. Now, these sorts of things often arouse anxiety for many people, not just fundamentalists. But because of their religious indoctrination, adherents to fundamentalist religion have a hard time managing that anxiety any other way.

Remember, as I have been elucidating in this series, the value and competence of one’s self is thoroughly undermined, in fundamentalism. Fundamentalist Christianity powerfully hammers home the idea that we are “horrors” to God: corrupt, prideful, and incapable of improving ourselves. The goal of fundamentalist apologetics is to overwhelm you with a gut-level conviction of your own badness, and thereby induce a sense of profound helplessness. It’s every effort is directed against undermining a believer’s sense of self-esteem, competence, or efficacy.

Such a believer can hardly be blamed for feeling inadequate to run his own life! Making important decisions when you cannot be sure of the “rightness” of your decision arouses normal anxiety in everyone. And to tolerate this anxiety and make a decision anyway requires some measure of basic self-esteem and self-confidence. But fundamentalists often have neither, because it has been ground out of them. So they have to get their confidence from somewhere else.

An inerrant text comes in right handy for such purposes. A better anxiety emollient than a perfect Word from a perfect God can hardly be imagined. In errant text quells a believer’s anxiety about life. He does not feel in control of his life, worm that he is – but he doesn’t have to be, because he can hand the reigns to God, certain of the guidance he finds in his book. Inerrancy serves a desperately needed function of establishing confidence in the only guiding star a believer thinks exists. Without it, he is adrift with nothing at all to lead him across some very scary and very lonely waters. The idea of steering using his own judgment just doesn’t occur to him.

So, my proposal for understanding the claim of Biblical inerrancy is this: fundamentalist believers posit inerrancy just because they need inerrancy. They can then just fuss with the details until it all fits. The result is not very elegant, perhaps. But who cares about elegance when your very soul is at stake?

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"Your comments here aren't based on anything other than secular reasoning and they have no merit at all." ~ ABO


Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:16 pm
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Post Re: Jacob's Trouble approaching
Interesting article. I wonder if ABO sees himself in there even a little. I wish we knew a little more about the author "Richard" though----- e.g., is this an informed or scholarly article based on solid foundations of psychology, or a well-articulated opinion piece that merely sounds good to psychology-challenged dunces like me.


Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:30 pm
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Post Re: Jacob's Trouble approaching
Oh Henry wrote:
Science and science-minded people are okay with saying, "I don't know."

Yes, and have to be careful not to accept easy answers that later prove false like believing Darwin's Finches demonstrate "evolution" when it's actually cell-sensing that keeps change within a range. Having no influence over a million years or so makes it part of other theory. The really science-minded have no problem with removing that from what is called "evolutionary theory" but some would rather without evidence still believe that finch beaks demonstrate evolution. When the science-minded are tested, they still often go with their biases.

Oh Henry wrote:
Science and science-minded people are okay with changing our minds when a better explanation comes along.

Problem here though is you are saying you're not done changing your mind, therefore ABO and others can just assume you'll eventually figure out what Genesis is explaining but until then they don't care where you're at right now.

The way I see it there are facts, like gravity, sun rises in the east and sets in the west, humans have a fusion that gives us 46 chromosomes not 48, there are intelligent animals. Are many things that I do not ever expect to have to change my mind on. And theories are for explaining facts. With so much now in limbo from it not fitting into evolutionary paradigm as was once thought, new theory is needed, so of course I'm working on it. Better that than be subject to one of the unevidenced explanations that are now around, that are expected to have to very much change, because they're not even really true to begin with.

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Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:37 pm
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Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:55 am
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Post Re: Jacob's Trouble approaching
Norm Smith wrote:
Interesting article. I wonder if ABO sees himself in there even a little.
Probably not. He sees us in the article, as true believers of the "religion" of evolution. In his world, he is rubber and we are glue... For another example, http://www.kcfs.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2045.

Norm Smith wrote:
I wish we knew a little more about the author "Richard" though----- e.g., is this an informed or scholarly article based on solid foundations of psychology, or a well-articulated opinion piece that merely sounds good to psychology-challenged dunces like me.

Its a blog and as such I'm treating it as nothing more than an opinion piece, but it does echo more scholarly things I've read on conspiracy theories. That is, feelings of vulnerability and/or the fear of the unknown cause many people to create elaborate explanations that could only be carried out by highly ordered and synchronized organizations. The actions of simple agents (a disease), and especially random agents (a stray bullet), can be very unnerving, especially if the consequences are huge (a lone gunman assassinating the leader of the free world), so larger, more complex agents are constructed to make those actions seem less like an everyday possibility. "Shit happens," is not very comforting to someone who has experienced tragedy, but if there is purpose or intent behind the tragedy, even if its evil, it is somehow more comforting to the victims.

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"Your comments here aren't based on anything other than secular reasoning and they have no merit at all." ~ ABO


Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:19 pm
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Post Re: Jacob's Trouble approaching
Jack Krebs wrote:
Once again (and again and again), ABO asks the wrong question. The correct question "can you is show me evidence that a claim is true." The statement that Jesus is the son of God, or that God spoke to Moses, or that Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt, or that belief in Jesus will get you into heaven, are all statements for which there is no evidence, and no therefore no reason, given the world as we know it, to believe them. Asking someone who doesn't believe in them on faith to prove that they are false is silly.


How tiring, trying to ask a question from someone who thinks evolution is science and science is God is almost not worth it.

Can I show you evidence that a claim is true from the Bible? Yes.
It says He made them male and female. Male and female are here. It says He says he made the stars, I'm looking at em. Do we have to do this.

Let's try again. Can you show me something unquestionable false in the Bible we can see today. Something not based on your belief or mine. Something like there are not stars.


Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:21 pm
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Post Re: Jacob's Trouble approaching
Jack Krebs wrote:
Until there is considerable evidence that there is reason to belief that the supernatural parts of the Bible are true (son of God, salvation, etc.), the reasonable default position is that the Bible is not true - the same position I take for all other religious texts which claim to know the truth about such things. So far the things that ABO offers as reasons to believe are not substantial at all.


Non Sequiturs and Equivocation. The default postion is not that its not true, given the evidence you require, but that it is unproven. Unproven is not the same as "not true".

Moreover, given your presuppositions, I suggest that there is no evidence, even in principle, that you would accept.


Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:24 pm
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Post Re: Jacob's Trouble approaching
ABO wrote:

Can I show you evidence that a claim is true from the Bible? Yes.
It says He made them male and female. Male and female are here. It says He says he made the stars, I'm looking at em. Do we have to do this.


The tenacity with which you display your devotion to ignorance is almost comical. This has to be one of the dumbest arguments you have ever put forth in here IMO.

"It says" is not evidence!

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Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:44 pm
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Post Re: Jacob's Trouble approaching
ABO, the Bible says that Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt, which, based on everything we know about the world today, is a preposterous thing to claim happened to a human being. Do you think that it is true that she was turned into a pillar of salt? If so, why do you believe that?

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"I would rather live with uncertainty than believe things that are not true." (paraphrased from Feynman)


Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:13 pm
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Post Re: Jacob's Trouble approaching
In my opinion, for the scientific issues all here must first establish what the facts are and agree on what you can. Are otherwise using generalizations to disprove generalizations, need to break down the problem to its smallest parts then work from there.

To help get that started (I hope) I explained this so ABO can start off a more formidable challenge and even have the honor of personally ripping the finches out of Darwinism, by agreeing that the following (just me saying that) is more likely true:

I from experience learned that giving a theory like this that pertains to intelligence to an evolutionary biologist gets it compared the theory they specialize in then easily dismissed as useless. System level mechanisms of speciation needed to explain origin of humans are imagined to be the exclusive domain of evolutionary biology, yet Darwin’s Finches are not even really there anymore. The overall circuit represented by epigenetics is better explained as a molecular intelligence system.

Someone needing to know where to get started modeling epigenetics needs a theory that sums it all up without missing the all controlling once started intelligence (or at least as protointelligence) that must be there for something to be considered alive. Are here in the area of Artificial-Life not AI. For epigenetics is best to begin with the moment to moment in the life of a molecular intelligence that cycles by replicating its memory contents, that can in part be influenced by cellular intelligence that also adds faster moment to moment responses for controlling flagella and such to get around.

Natural selection does not explain how an epigenetic system works, but a theory that does not leave intelligence out of the system can.

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Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:01 am
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Post Re: Jacob's Trouble approaching
Jack Krebs wrote:
ABO, the Bible says that Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt, which, based on everything we know about the world today, is a preposterous thing to claim happened to a human being. Do you think that it is true that she was turned into a pillar of salt? If so, why do you believe that?


Jack, wrong question, What I believe or you believe doesn't matter. I can't prove it happened, you can't prove it didn't.


Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:01 am
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Post Re: Jacob's Trouble approaching
Way to avoid the issue, ABO - what bizarre, self-serving logic. You've been saying "show me something in the Bible that isn't true" and you've also said the Bible is totally and completely true: "Every Bible prediction must be dead on the money or there is no credibility at all. Every event in history, every geological location, ever prediction must be correct." That is, if it is not true that Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt, the Bible has no credibility at all. And since the Bible has complete credibililty t you, so you must believe the story of Lot's wife is true.

But you won't come right out and say that. You just fall on "no one was there, so we can't prove it didn't happen." That's not only silly logic, that's stupid logic. That same logic applies to every myth ever told - no matter how fantastic, since no one was there, we must just be neutral as to whether the event is true or false, even if the events totally violate everything we know about how the world works.

Weird, and a major example of how pointless it is to discuss things with Biblical literalisst such as yourself - you are totally isolated from and immune to any logical discussion about your beliefs.

</exasperation>

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"I would rather live with uncertainty than believe things that are not true." (paraphrased from Feynman)


Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:39 am
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Post Re: Jacob's Trouble approaching
ABO wrote:
Jack Krebs wrote:
ABO, the Bible says that Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt, which, based on everything we know about the world today, is a preposterous thing to claim happened to a human being. Do you think that it is true that she was turned into a pillar of salt? If so, why do you believe that?


Jack, wrong question, What I believe or you believe doesn't matter. I can't prove it happened, you can't prove it didn't.


I would go futher than that. Given the presuppostion of Philosophical Naturalism there is NO proof that the anti theist would, even IN PRINCIPLE, accept. Simply arguing that something does not go along with "everything we know about the word today" (EVERYTHING? Really?) is merely to Beg The Question.

By that I mean, that if they hold to the presupposition (unproven, but their standard nevertheless) that all existence, life, mind, and reason itself can be...or eventually will be...explained as a product of mindless forces, with no intelligence involved, then there is NO PROOF that they would accept for any theistic event.

The problem is, their presuppostion of Naturalism as stated above is unproven.

But they seldom come right out and say that.


Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:47 am
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Post Re: Jacob's Trouble approaching
Jack Krebs wrote:
Way to avoid the issue, ABO - what bizarre, self-serving logic. You've been saying "show me something in the Bible that isn't true" and you've also said the Bible is totally and completely true: "Every Bible prediction must be dead on the money or there is no credibility at all. Every event in history, every geological location, ever prediction must be correct." That is, if it is not true that Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt, the Bible has no credibility at all. And since the Bible has complete credibililty t you, so you must believe the story of Lot's wife is true.

But you won't come right out and say that. You just fall on "no one was there, so we can't prove it didn't happen." That's not only silly logic, that's stupid logic. That same logic applies to every myth ever told - no matter how fantastic, since no one was there, we must just be neutral as to whether the event is true or false, even if the events totally violate everything we know about how the world works.

Weird, and a major example of how pointless it is to discuss things with Biblical literalisst such as yourself - you are totally isolated from and immune to any logical discussion about your beliefs.

</exasperation>


Bull.

It all boils down to one thing. Dirt was made by someone or dirt made itself.

So are we to assume you have nothing?


Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:13 am
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Post Re: Jacob's Trouble approaching
Hi Mike.

1. You never responded to my remarks about the provisional nature of science. Just sayin'...

2. Yes, and I written this before (but most of the time you forget things that don't fit your boilerplate comments), there are things that could convince me that a God or gods exist, and even that the Christian God exists: some type of direct experience of a being who clearly violated all known laws of nature, such as popping into and out of physical existence, declaring himself, and producing obvious miracles, would do it. The rapture would do it. Dying and finding myself in hell would do it (although that doesn't really count, because that would be beyond this life.)

For that matter, as I've said many times (but you, like ABO, have ways to dismiss what you don't want to hear), I am open to the possible metaphysical existence of a component of spirit in the world. I don't have a "presupposition to naturalism", and I'm aware that some phenomena perhaps are evidence for something beyond the physical.

But you won't accept that, or remember that, I'm sure.

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"I would rather live with uncertainty than believe things that are not true." (paraphrased from Feynman)


Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:06 am
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Post Re: Jacob's Trouble approaching
Again, ABO punts by falling back (way back) to "It all boils down to one thing. Dirt was made by someone or dirt made itself."

It may very well be that some conscious willful divine entity created the universe - many religions have stories about who created the universe, and how they did it.

But that is extremely different than claiming that the Christian God created the universe in six days about 6000 years ago, and even more extremely different than claiming that every word of the Bible is true, including the story of Lot's wife being turned into a pillar of salt.

So your reply doesn't really address the issue we are discussing at all.

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"I would rather live with uncertainty than believe things that are not true." (paraphrased from Feynman)


Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:19 pm
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