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Salvador T. Cordova
Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 32
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 Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 6:33 pm Post subject: Darwin's Greatest Contribution to Science |
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| Quote: | Darwin’s greatest contribution to science is that he completed the Copernican Revolution by drawing out for biology the notion of nature as a system of matter in motion governed by natural laws. With Darwin’s discovery of natural selection, the origin and adaptations of organisms were brought into the realm of science. The adaptive features of organisms could now be explained, like the phenomena of the inanimate world, as the result of natural processes, without recourse to an Intelligent Designer. The Copernican and the Darwinian Revolutions may be seen as the two stages of the one Scientific Revolution. They jointly ushered in the beginning of science in the modern sense of the word: explanation through natural laws. Darwin’s theory of natural selection accounts for the “design” of organisms, and for their wondrous diversity, as the result of natural processes, the gradual accumulation of spontaneously arisen variations (mutations) sorted out by natural selection. Which characteristics will be selected depends on which variations happen to be present at a given time in a given place. This in turn depends on the random process of mutation as well as on the previous history of the organisms. Mutation and selection have jointly driven the marvelous process that, starting from microscopic organisms, has yielded orchids, birds, and humans. The theory of evolution conveys chance and necessity, randomness and determinism, jointly enmeshed in the stuff of life. This was Darwin’s fundamental discovery, that there is a process that is creative, although not conscious.
PNAS
Darwin's greatest discovery: Design without designer by Rev. Francisco Ayala
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"I beat a puppy, I believe, simply from enjoying the sense of power" -- Charles "Gas" Darwin |
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wffarrell
Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 488
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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Sal, do you have a point other than the one on the top of your head?
Another drive-by fruiting by our resident creationist, Sal.
No, Sal, in case you were wondering, I won't respect you in the morning. |
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Jack Krebs
Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 640
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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I like the quote. Thanks, Sal.
I particularly like this: "This was Darwin’s fundamental discovery, that there is a process that is creative, although not conscious."
Nature is creative. Mind arises as one of the creative acts of nature. ID is fundamentally an anthropomorphism which gets the cart and the horse backwards.
My two cents. |
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Greg Myers
Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 1210
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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Though given the current debate, to put it this way is to slant the argument - It is not that nature designed something without consciousness - it is that nature has mimicked design though natural selection and random mutation.
Design is a human activity, and suggests an end in mind - the natural analogue might be more fitness for a purpose.
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The sleep of reason produces monsters.
Francisco de Goya, Los Caprichos, 1799 |
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csadams
Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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A quibble:
It's been noted before, but Salvador keeps using the tagline | Quote: | | "I beat a puppy, I believe, simply from enjoying the sense of power" -- Charles Darwin |
out of context.
Sal, do you realize how your credibility is damaged by this practice?
Would you mind if we cited these words of yours?
| Quote: | I'm not versant yet in how to do that
Unfortunately, the human mind tends to think
if non Christians are elected to become [IDEA club] officers, the club can continue under it’s [sic]constitution, but it can no longer be a recognized as sanctioned chapter by the IDEA center in San Diego, but rather would have to delcare itself a renegade ID chapter.
I see no objections . . . to . . . Hitler
The line of questioning will make it evident that what is being promoted is . . . religion, not science, and therefore outside the intended use of precious taxpayer money. |
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“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing” – Edmund Burke
Stand Up For REAL Science! |
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Jack Krebs
Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 640
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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I had not noticed Sal's signature line. It confirms my opinion that Sal is, and I know this is harsh, despicable. That is the most egregious example of dishonest quoting I have ever seen. How he can live with himself is beyond me.
Here's where Sal's quote comes from:
| Quote: | The Autobiography of Charles Darwin
Page 02
Once as a very little boy whilst at the day school, or before that time, I acted cruelly, for I beat a puppy, I believe, simply from enjoying the sense of power; but the beating could not have been severe, for the puppy did not howl, of which I feel sure, as the spot was near the house. This act lay heavily on my conscience, as is shown by my remembering the exact spot where the crime was committed. It probably lay all the heavier from my love of dogs being then, and for a long time afterwards, a passion. Dogs seemed to know this, for I was an adept in robbing their love from their masters. |
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Jack Krebs
Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 640
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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| And to Greg - the quote in the opening post doesn't say that nature designs, but that nature is creative. There is a distinction there. |
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Aster
Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 130
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 6:30 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, posting error
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think
Last edited by Aster on Wed May 16, 2007 7:23 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Aster
Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 130
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 6:36 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, posting error
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think
Last edited by Aster on Wed May 16, 2007 7:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Aster
Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 130
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| Aster wrote: | | Jack Krebs wrote: | I had not noticed Sal's signature line. It confirms my opinion that Sal is, and I know this is harsh, despicable. That is the most egregious example of dishonest quoting I have ever seen. How he can live with himself is beyond me.
Here's where Sal's quote comes from:
| Quote: | The Autobiography of Charles Darwin
Page 02
Once as a very little boy whilst at the day school, or before that time, I acted cruelly, for I beat a puppy, I believe, simply from enjoying the sense of power; but the beating could not have been severe, for the puppy did not howl, of which I feel sure, as the spot was near the house. This act lay heavily on my conscience, as is shown by my remembering the exact spot where the crime was committed. It probably lay all the heavier from my love of dogs being then, and for a long time afterwards, a passion. Dogs seemed to know this, for I was an adept in robbing their love from their masters. |
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I have often told Cordoba, in my comments on his posts, that he should be ashamed of himself for all the things he does, and which show extreme manipulative techniques. I suppose he has a dogma to promote, and thinks that "the end justifies the means." But how can Truth be promoted thru what can only be described as dishonest means ?
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WideAwake Inventor
Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 292
Location: King of Prussia, Pa, USA
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 8:21 am Post subject: |
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Hey, get off this guy's back.
Sal, whatever you may have posted previously, and disregarding your inept byline, this was a great post. Absolutely the "evolutionist" theme, so far as I could see.
I followed the link, and found that | Quote: | | This paper results from the Arthur M. Sackler Colloquium of the National Academy of Sciences, "In the Light of Evolution I: Adaptation and Complex Design," held December 1-2, 2006, at the Arnold and Mabel Beckman Center of the National Academies of Sciences and Engineering in Irvine, CA. The complete program is available on the NAS web site at www.nasonline.org/adaptation_and_complex_design. |
At that site, the Meeting Overview mentions only "resurgent societal interest in supernatural explanations for biological complexity," which appears to be dismissive.
If so, does this mean, Sal, that you have renounced all previous sins --- which must have been extreme, judging from the knee-jerk responses?
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To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. ~ Thomas Jefferson (letter to John Adams, Aug. 15, 1820)
When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion. ~ Abraham Lincoln |
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Jack Krebs
Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 640
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 9:11 am Post subject: |
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Sal deserves people to be "on his back," and I don't think my response was "knee-jerk."
There are two subjects here - the quote Sal posted, which is interesting and entirely supportive of evolutionary biology as far as I can tell, and the sig line about Darwin, which is inexcusable.
Many of us have a long history with Sal, and he deserves to have his dishonesty pointed out. |
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Salvador T. Cordova
Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 9:16 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
WideAwake said:
At that site, the Meeting Overview mentions only "resurgent societal interest in supernatural explanations for biological complexity," which appears to be dismissive.
If so, does this mean, Sal, that you have renounced all previous sins --- which must have been extreme, judging from the knee-jerk responses?
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I'm afraid not. I'm still a "despicable" ID proponent.
I was very curious to see how many agreed with Ayala's claim that destroying the ID argument was Darwin's greatest contribution to science.
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"I beat a puppy, I believe, simply from enjoying the sense of power" -- Charles "Gas" Darwin |
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Jack Krebs
Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 640
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| How about responding to the dishonesty in your quote from Darwin, Sal. That is an example of why you are despicable - it's not your support for ID, it's your dishonesty. |
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Aster
Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 130
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| Salvador T. Cordova wrote: | | Quote: |
WideAwake said:
At that site, the Meeting Overview mentions only "resurgent societal interest in supernatural explanations for biological complexity," which appears to be dismissive.
If so, does this mean, Sal, that you have renounced all previous sins --- which must have been extreme, judging from the knee-jerk responses?
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I'm afraid not. I'm still a "despicable" ID proponent.
I was very curious to see how many agreed with Ayala's claim that destroying the ID argument was Darwin's greatest contribution to science. |
Cordoba,
Your truncated quote of Darwin in your sig line shows utter dishonesty and contempt for your readers. That's why I usually don't read your posts anymore. How can I care about what you say, if what you say is based on your manipulation of ideas and quotes, without any regard neither for the author nor for the reader ?
I am astounded that you still find enough assurance to write a post today here, after you have been exposed in such a shameful way. I would have thought you would need to disappear from this thread for at least a month, if not a year.
I would have a lot to say about Ayala, and his (maybe dubious) interpretation of the things he's talking about. but I certainly wouldn't discuss that with you, until you take out that sig and apologize for all your past manipulations.
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